Atmospheric Carbonic Acid

One aspect of the “Global Warming” discussion, which is not covered adequately, is what happens to CO2 in the atmosphere?

This highly soluble gas ensures it gets rapidly absorbed into the atmospheric moisture which starts out at a pH of 7.0, but reduces to between 5 and 5.5 pH as rainfall which is the CO2 absorption limit.

Rain drops have now become drops of carbonic acid.

As rain, CO2 parachutes out of the atmosphere in large quantities, much of which falls directly onto the ocean, where the pH is around 8.2

Here the sea water immediately neutralises the more acid rain. This ensures CO2 occupies a unique position relative to the other atmospheric gasses, and explains why there will always be a limit to the quantity of CO2 present in the atmosphere, but not in the sea water.

The following graph shows why the sea water readily dissolves CO2 at a pH of 8.2:[i]

[i]. https://bosmin.com//SeaChange.pdf

The gas is largely absorbed as the bicarbonate radical HCO3-

CO2 solubility highlights the importance of Henry’s Law, and the Sea Surface Temperature. SST controls the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere immediately above the ocean, as reported by Emeritus Professor Lance Endersbee.[1] The results are based on recorded quantities, and show a straight line relationship between SST and atmospheric CO2. Sea temperatures are mostly controlled by tectonic activity on the sea floor.

These fundamentals are germain to the whole ‘Green House’ debate, and show there is no connection between burning coal, LNG, bush fires, GM, BMW, or Tesla, and the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Planting trees and reducing ‘emissions’ will do nothing to alter the basics of atmospheric CO2 science.

References:

[1]. https://bosmin.com/PSL/RainingCO2.pdf

[2]. https://bosmin.com//SeaChange.pdf

[3]. http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Focus_0808_endersbee.pdf


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Comments (25)

  • Avatar

    jerry krause

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    Hi Robert,

    You have ignored (overlooked, dismissed) the chemical equilibrium system that involves the natural carbon dioxide (molecule), carbonic acid (molecule), hydrogen carbonate ion (negative ion), carbonate ion (doubly negative), metal ions (doubly positive), Metal Carbonates (solid) that exist in the salt water ocean systems.

    Dissolved divalent metal ions (doubly positive), since there have been rivers flowing into the ocean, have been dissolved by the acidic rain (ph less than 7) falling on land surfaces as this surface water runs into the rivers and ultimately into the oceans. Which some of these dissolved divalent metal ions form some generally insoluble ionic carbonate solids that have been found on the ocean bottoms.

    Hence, your conclusion that there is a natural equilibrium control upon the measured carbon dioxide concentration found in the atmosphere, is correct. It is just that you have omitted some of the important details of this natural, equilibrium, chemical system which is so ‘big’ and naturally reacts to reduce any influence by what must be considered minor (relative to the huge size of the natural system) human activity.

    Have a good day, Jerry

    Reply

    • Avatar

      Robert Beatty

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      Jerry,
      Thanks for your comments. The paper was purposely written to be understandable by the widest possible readership range, and not confused by the many side reactions you accurately refer to. Your remarks suggest this has been achieved.

      Reply

      • Avatar

        jerry krause

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        Hi Robert,

        Would you have preferred that your professor’s, who maybe taught you something about mining engineering, had not confused you with the details about mining engineering. I have read that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Better be confused than to believe that one knows something when one really doesn’t. know many details of a topic or system.

        “The gas is largely absorbed as the bicarbonate radical HCO3-” Earlier you wrote: “Rain drops have now become drops of carbonic acid [H2CO3].” If your first statement is correct, you, by the second, have suggested that carbonic acid is a relatively strong acid acid.

        Now based upon what I have read from chemistry texts, I am honestly confused because I read that only a small fraction of the dissolved carbon dioxide actually reacts with a water molecule to form the carbonic acid molecule and the vast majority of the carbon dioxide molecules are dissolved, unreacted, as oxygen and nitrogen molecules are.

        I stop here because I hope a reader is just as confused about this as I am. Except I hope they understand that it seems that maybe no one understands this system with numerous parts.

        Have a good day, Jerry

        Reply

          • Avatar

            Herb Rose

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            Hi Robert,
            In a weak acid the molecules exist as both ions (HCO3- and H3O+) and as hydrated molecules (H2OCO2) The pH is how much disassociation there is between the molecule structure and the ion structure. In a strong acid like HCl there is complete disassociation. (H3O+ and Cl-) and the Ph (the negative exponent of the hydrogen ion concentration) is close to 1 compared to the pH of 7 for pure water. The pH of 5 for carbonic acid would indicate to me that only about 5 % of the CO2 dissolved in the water is in the form of carbonic acid.
            Herb

          • Avatar

            jerry krause

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            Hi Robert,

            What is the base in the sea that neutralises the weak acid carbonic acid? Maybe I did not understand all that you wrote, but the base in the sea water is a reason the sea water keeps dissolving the soluble carbon dioxide without significantly changing the sea water’s pH.

            Have a good day, Jerry

  • Avatar

    Herb Rose

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    Hi Robert,
    The 400 ppm million concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is a dry measurement which means the water has been removed and the aqueous CO2 has been converted to gaseous CO2. Given the percentage of water in the atmosphere I wonder what exactly the concentration of gaseous CO2 is in the atmosphere and if that 400 ppm is in reality a large o\ver statement of the concentration of CO2 gas molecules in the atmosphere. Aqueous CO2 would not act as a gas at all and the nonsensical contention that CO2 in the atmosphere is reflecting energy back to the Earth could not be occurring.
    Herb

    Reply

    • Avatar

      Robert Beatty

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      Herb,
      You raise a very good point. The atmospheric water in the air sample is dried in a ‘cold trap’ where the water vapor freezes out as ice. This liberates the dissolved CO2 and the reading for the whole sample is taken. The moisture content of any sample varies widely, which means the values attributed to gaseous CO2 would also vary. Since water is reportedly the stronger ‘green house’ gas, the sample measured on a wet basis might be more useful. Either way, it shows rain does much to rapidly recirculate CO2 from the atmosphere.

      Reply

      • Avatar

        HerbbRose

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        Hi Robert,
        I once read (I do not know where) about people creating an artificial tree to remove CO2 from the air.At first they used a spay of sodium hydroxide to remove the CO2 but later found that a plain water spray was just as effective (though not as efficient) at removing CO2. Rain does cleanse the air of CO2.
        I don’t think water can be classifieds a “greenhouse gas” since it doesn’t reflect energy but absorbs and stores it.
        Herb

        Reply

      • Avatar

        Herb Rose

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        Hi again Robert,
        How effective is freezing water in liberating CO2? They use ice cores from glaciers to determine the CO2 level of the atmosphere at different times in the glaciers formation. Have they done studies on the permeability of CO2 in ice and if it migrates? I would think a more effective way of separating CO2 from water would be by heating the sample rather than freezing it.
        Herb

        Reply

        • Avatar

          CD Marshall

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          Hi Herb,

          You know I read somewhere that the beginning of an ice age was around 3,000 ppmv (or even more) but by the end it was almost all gone. Anyone hear of that?

          Reply

          • Avatar

            Robert Beatty

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            Herb and CD Marshall,
            The problem with heating the sample is, how do you vent the steam without including some of the sample? Freezing it gets over that problem – provided no gas is trapped in the ice as bubbles. If the ice grows slowly enough, that should not be a problem.
            Ice core sampling seems to bring along a whole new set of problems, because the sample is trapped air bubbles within the ice. The argument seems to be that some of the CO2 in the air bubble has leach out of the ice over millennia, or some has been lost through the drilling process. I must say the ice core CO2 results do seem low to me – especially when compared to pre industrial laboratory figures.
            However, if we go back to the last ice age, one would expect the sea to be colder and the CO2 levels consequently lower – according to the Endersbee formula. Maybe a more accurate way of calculating historical CO2 levels would be to interpret the sea temperature from the foraminifera record, and by extension the CO2 concentrations?

          • Avatar

            Herb Rose

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            Hi Robert,
            I would think that since ice is less dense than water gases would be able to penetrate and move in it easier than in water.
            If a desiccant, such as silica gel was used to absorb the water vapor it would not be necessary to vent the the experiment. Just use heat to release the CO2 then absorb the water before the gas is reabsorbed.
            Since cooling water increases the solubility of CO2 it seems using that method would be fighting itself. Just because the ice has no gas bubbles doesn’t mean that it doesn’t contain gases in the crystal structure.
            I do not know how the water is removed but if it is done by freezing the water to get the gases out I would question its accuracy.
            Herb

  • Avatar

    Joseph Olson

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    “Unravelling the Mysteries of Carbonic Acid” ~ ScienceDaily(.)com > June 2015

    Carbonic acid is a weak acid with a half-life of 26 milliseconds, acidification impossible.

    Reply

    • Avatar

      Robert Beatty

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      Joseph,
      An interesting fact, I was previously unaware of. Fortunately it does not alter our general understanding of how this critical gas operates in nature.

      Reply

  • Avatar

    Michael Clarke

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    Hi Robert,
    if CO2 is so easily dissolved in water, why does a bottle of ‘Soda’ water not turn into Carbonic Acid?
    The CO2 is still there and released as fizz when the bottle is opened, even after a long time in the bottle!
    I think I know why, but would be interested in other people answers.

    Reply

  • Avatar

    Robert Beatty

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    Michael,
    ‘Soda’ can cover a multitude of drink combinations and “dissolved minerals such as potassium bicarbonate, sodium bicarbonate, sodium citrate, or potassium sulfate”
    The base ingredient includes CO2 which forms some level of carbonic acid.

    Reply

    • Avatar

      Michael Clarke

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      The Soda water I was referring to is ordinary tap water and cartridge of compressed CO2 as in ‘Soda Stream’

      Reply

      • Avatar

        Robert Beatty

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        Michael Clarke,
        In that case you are drinking and enjoying pure carbonic acid, which shows how weak that acid is relative to other common acids.

        Reply

        • Avatar

          Michael Clarke

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          Nope, There is still lots and lots of CO2 that makes the fizz and it does not get more acidic with time!

          Reply

  • Avatar

    Dr Darko Butina

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    One important point that non-scientific readers have to understand is that the quoted concentration of CO2 in the Earth atmosphere of 400 ppm ONLY APPLIES to the location where the calibrated instrument is fixed, which is on the vulcano top Mauna Loa, Hawaii. If one measures CO2 levels in the the middle of forest one would find concentrations of CO2 anywhere between 1000 and 2000 ppm, the ranges of CO2 at which plants grow the most. The main problem with measuring level of CO2 above the ocean’s surface is the problem with installing and fixing the instrument at the same coordinates. The simple take home message when discussing either temperatures or CO2 concentrations is that ALL the data that is generated by any calibrated instrument is by definition LOCAL, i.e. dependent on the GPS coordinates of the instrument, and also has to have a time-stamp when the data has been recorded. Dr Darko Butina

    Reply

  • Avatar

    K. Kaiser

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    @Dr. Burkina,
    Do you have any reference(s) for the statement that “…in the the middle of forest one would find [atmospheric] concentrations of CO2 anywhere between 1000 and 2000 ppm…”

    Needless to say, I’m doubtful about that.

    Reply

  • Avatar

    K. Kaiser

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    @Dr. Butina,
    Apologies for misspelling your name in my previous comment.

    Reply

    • Avatar

      Robert Beatty

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      Dr Darko Butina and Klaus Kaiser,
      The 1000 to 2000ppm figures seems to be more related to a commercial green house operation than a regular forest environment.
      CO2 concentration is certainly a spot reading, but in the case of the Southern Hemisphere is probably fairly representative – especially during the winter time. This is because of Antarctic katabatic wind influence on CO2 mixing. Antarctica forms a high plateau (~2750m) surrounded by low-lying plains. Cold air forming on the plateau increases in density and falls over the edge creating katabatic wind. During the descent, air pressure increases further raising the density and accelerating the wind. Katabatic wind leaves the continent in a radial pattern which mixes with the “shrieking sixties, furious fifties and roaring forties” to form a series of barrelling wind eddies across the ocean and high into the atmosphere.
      The wind chill effect on the sea surface is enhanced by this process making the sea more amenable to absorbing CO2. The rapid air circulation presents large volumes of the atmosphere to the cold sea surface, thereby facilitating the rapid transfer of atmospheric CO2.

      Reply

    • Avatar

      Dr Darko Butina

      |

      Beaty and Kaiser

      The standard way of discussing any given topic between research scientists is not to express their own opinion but to reference the published papers and only after reading those papers one can either confirm validity of the paper or offer different view by citing published papers that refute those papers. So to help you both to understand the experiments with the effect of various concentrations of CO2 on maximum plants growth follow the links below:
      http://www.co2science.org/about/center_staff.php
      http://www.co2science.org/video/videos.php
      http://www.co2science.org/education/truthalerts/truthalerts.php
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2qVNK6zFgE
      especially video called ‘seeing it is beliving it’.
      It is important to know that the blog site http://www.co2science.org is run by father and son Idso family, where the father, Craig Idso, Ph.D. has worked all his life on the most important problem which faces our plane, NOT the climate change, but how to feed the population, which in turn means finding the maximum levels of CO2 that allows maximum growth of plants which are at the bottom of the food chain for all inhabitants of our planet. I would also recomend you to learn how to use Google Scholar which will give you reference papers for any scientific inquiry, either by author or topic. For example, type Idso in the search engine and see what you get, or my name, Darko Butina, and will get few pages referencing my publications and get you some idea what my professional career was all about. You can also check my website on http://www.l4patterns.com and check few reports concerning CO2 coming from the knowledge of physico-chemical properties of molecules that is an essesntial part of field known as Synthetic Organic Chemistry, also known as experimental carbon chemistry. Hope this help

      Reply

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